tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post1314605654529922904..comments2023-11-03T02:49:01.010-07:00Comments on Debunking Loftus: Setting John Straight: John W. Loftus, Friend of the DisabledTruth Be Toldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02054029140219121029noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-53188682509762319282009-10-22T15:11:37.419-07:002009-10-22T15:11:37.419-07:00I wouldn't say that, Harry. :)
We can't...I wouldn't say that, Harry. :)<br /><br /> We can't empirically prove God in a test tube. That's for sure. <br /><br />But, I don't feel that Christian faith is this totally irrational leap in the dark, either, naturalistic pre-suppositions aside.<br /><br />There's a difference, I think, between saying our understanding is finite, and imperfect, and that by reason alone we can't know God, than in saying folks should never question, or attempt to search anything out, "check their minds at the church door," so to speak.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-37944115099826544922009-10-21T19:17:05.681-07:002009-10-21T19:17:05.681-07:00Grace,
As the chorus to that great Christian hymn...Grace,<br /><br />As the chorus to that great Christian hymn so clearly states:<br /><br /><b>Only believe. Only believe. <i>All things are possible.</i> ONLY BELIEVE!</b><br /><br />(This includes everything from Catholicism to Mormonism to Sciencetology)Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-14765271843948671692009-10-21T09:04:32.741-07:002009-10-21T09:04:32.741-07:00Ismell,
Your questions, and comments are good, an...Ismell,<br /><br />Your questions, and comments are good, and challenging.<br /><br />I for one can't say I completely understand, that's for sure. As the Scripture says, "We see through a glass darkly."<br /><br />But, I think unless God somehow became incarnate, we could not have known the depth of His love. It's by seeing Jesus that we see the face of God, so to speak. We can actually know what He is like, up close, and personal. :)<br /><br />I suppose if the death of Christ were unnecessary, or superfulous, it would have been like the stalker breaking his own finger. But, if it's truly through His death, and resurrection that together with Him our natures will be changed to reflect the perfect love of God, too, that's another thing.<br /><br />If it's by His death, and resurrection, that God puts an end to death, and evil for ever, it's another ball of wax.<br /><br />But, you're right, we surely don't have a perfect understanding of why this was so, the precise mechanics of it... <br /><br />The church has come up with different theories over the years, but every analogy falls short of the reality itself, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.<br /><br />I, for one, even though my understanding is imperfect, have decided to trust that "life giving stream."Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-74150715338628692652009-10-18T17:20:19.149-07:002009-10-18T17:20:19.149-07:00I never understood what the big deal about that wa...I never understood what the big deal about that was, Grace.<br /><br />In a scene from a bad Ellen DeGeneres movie called Mr. Wrong, her stalking boyfriend tells her that to show how much he loves her, he's going to break his little finger, which he does.<br /><br />The same question presents itself in both situations: Why?!<br /><br />God is running the whole show, although he's always made out to be some sort of powerless bit player in a larger reality. He could have made salvation dependent on a cosmic pie-eating contest, with infinite second chances given, instead of the bloody, one-shot mess we have to contend with now, that somehow necessitated him crucifying himself.<br /><br />I don't feel like crucifying him, although maybe I would have, had he dropped me at birth into such a primitive and brainwashed society that was apparently too superstitious to believe in freedom of speech and religion, which would have saved him.<br /><br />I hope for and think we need a god, but why the Christian god does all these convoluted things that nobody understands (although people like to pretend they do), I'll never know.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-61093809087226950492009-10-18T16:21:06.976-07:002009-10-18T16:21:06.976-07:00But, what about Jesus' comment in the synoptic...But, what about Jesus' comment in the synoptics about "giving His life a ransom for many, " and the institution of the Lord's supper?? Jesus does speak of the new covenant in His blood, and the forgiveness of sin. This parallels Paul, I think.<br /><br />But, hey, what do you think about the incarnation, Harry McCall?<br /><br /> The whole reality of God loving us so much that He fully entered into human life, and suffering, absorbed the consequence of sin, alienation into Himself, so that we could share in His life, really speaks tons to me.<br /><br />(It is a huge mystery, something beyond finite human understanding, for sure..)<br /><br />And, after all that, how can we not help but care, and show grace to everyone out there, including Mr. Loftus? <br /><br />Well, speaking of course from my perspective as a Christian believer.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-23342317119046800382009-10-17T09:38:55.154-07:002009-10-17T09:38:55.154-07:00Grace,
You make some good points.
Even after 1 ...Grace,<br /><br />You make some good points.<br /><br />Even after 1 - 3 years of being directly taught by Jesus himself, the Apostles did not understand who Jesus was nor what he was up to (Jesus often complained about this himself and the disillusionment and desertion by the Apostles at the crucifixion in the Gospels plainly proves this.) <br /><br />Facts prove too that Evangelicals can not get a Plan of Salvation out of the Synoptic Gospels (Hey, read some Gospels tracts), but, at the same time, they have no problem getting salvation out of Romans (a letter written by a man who probably never saw nor heard Jesus).<br /><br />New Testament facts show that ti is really in the Book of Acts and the letters of Paul that Christianity is given some form doctrinal bases.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-81767666824319287102009-10-17T09:18:18.102-07:002009-10-17T09:18:18.102-07:00Nick,
Notice, I said 20K Christianities, and not ...Nick,<br /><br />Notice, I said 20K Christianities, and not established denominations. So here’s my point:<br /><br />If, objectively, ANYONE who accepts Jesus atoning death is a Christian, then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Orthodox, along with all Baptist and Protestants, are ALL one Christianity -all brothers in Christ. <br /><br />But, based on my own personal conversations with the above (and many more), they reject each other , attack each other and even label other “Christian” groups as under Satan and, even the anti-Christ (Martian Luther did just this with the Pope). All except the Moonies (The Unification Church) who claim Jesus was given over to be crucified by God because Satan has take over his body (See the Moonies’ holy book: The Divine Principle).<br /><br />So here now the problem: Christianity is now subjectively defined. Now couple this with freedom of religion, and any personal belief where by a person has some new doctrine / truth (in a day where heresy can not be enforced), and facts now prove that there are now millions of Christianities.<br /><br />If you want to have some fun, simple go up to people and ask: Can you tell me what Christianity is? And notice than you will get some vague “It’s a believe in God.” or “It’s a belief in Jesus.” Then follow it up with: Well, why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other as heretics? Now you’ll find that life long church going Christians don’t real know what Christianity is either.<br /><br />My point is that if you placed literate non-religious people on 500 islands with only a Bible, you would come up with 500 different Christianities.<br /><br />In fact, it would be a great idea for someone to create a blog entitled: What is Christianity? (A Blog to Definitively Define Christianity!) and simply sit back and watch as everyone posting commits attacked everyone else who did not agree with them as non Christian.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-40900813254563132202009-10-16T17:45:43.956-07:002009-10-16T17:45:43.956-07:00Can you share more?
I know that there were diffe...Can you share more?<br /><br /> I know that there were differences of opinion in the first century church, the debate between Peter, and Paul relating to the Gentiles, for instance. But, I don't know that I would consider this to mean there were totally differing Christianities.<br /><br /> Both of these men affirmed, and followed Jesus as Lord.<br /><br />Some also feel that the gospel of Jesus is different than the teaching of Paul, but I'm able to see alot of commonality.<br /><br />I think the gnostics came on the scene later in the first, and especially the second century.<br /><br />I'm so sorry to hear of your experience in SS class. It sounds like you were trashed, and treated horribly.<br /><br /> To me if the "good news, " means anything it implies we should love, and accept people where they're at. I don't feel that anyone should be asked to leave a church because of questioning, or expressing a different opinion.<br /><br /> We should not be conducting orthodox litmus tests at the door. <br /><br />I mean who would Jesus reject, and turn away?<br /><br />Thanks for your comment, too, Ismellarat.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-5197440316165466582009-10-16T10:50:09.962-07:002009-10-16T10:50:09.962-07:0020,000 Christianities?
Do you have a source for t...20,000 Christianities?<br /><br />Do you have a source for that?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16175830373964472006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-34388986268054584842009-10-16T10:31:28.585-07:002009-10-16T10:31:28.585-07:00There came a time in my life when I realized that ...There came a time in my life when I realized that truth and Christianity were not the same. Christianity needs both creeds and dogmas to go unquestioned in order to exist. Thus, without truth being set (but drawn only from theology (making God logical Theo = god + logy = the study of)); there is now over 20,000 Christianities all claiming to have more “truth” than the others making Christianity a little more than a human construct of subjectivity. <br /><br />This applies to the debate between St. Paul and his opponents (St. Peter) and Jewish Christianity (Palestine) vs. Hellenistic Christianity (Asia Minor). <br /><br />It was in such a context that I had to make a choice to either be religious (Christian) or honest: I choose honestly.<br /><br />Fact is, Jesus’ love is not the central theme of Christianity nor is it Jesus himself, but competing Christianities = competing truths. <br /><br />Also, the strict limitation, not only what courses can be taught at conservative Christian colleges and universities, but just who is allowed to teach. By limiting courses (Example: Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text with that of the LXX, Targums (Aramaic / Syriac)) conservative schools have subjectively created a Christian illusion that never existed.<br /><br />The final straw for me came with the <i>Southern Baptist Convention</i> and their doctrinal booklet <b>The Baptist Quarterly</b>. I was asked to leave our Sunday school class; <b>not because I was immoral; not because I was unethical; not because I was rude; but simple because I placed the Hebrew Bible and New Testament in their historical contexts.</b><br /><br />I now define myself as an relative atheist (one who rejects the Biblical god) and not an absolute atheist (one who rejects any god). In the final respect, I am an agnostic.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-7148331578296798572009-10-11T17:40:03.684-07:002009-10-11T17:40:03.684-07:00I agree with you, Grace, that an unbeliever should...I agree with you, Grace, that an unbeliever shouldn't see religion as the world's #1 problem. <br /><br />"Support people when they do good, oppose them when they do bad, regardless of the worldviews that are behind what they do," is about the way I see it.<br /><br />If you do good in the name of your religion, others should respect that.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-4642574639881852992009-10-11T17:20:23.598-07:002009-10-11T17:20:23.598-07:00You know guys, I just have to comment. I have an e...You know guys, I just have to comment. I have an extremely difficult time figuring out why people are dead set to try, and debunk Christianity in the first place.<br /><br />Granted the church is far from perfect, made up of plenty of broken, and fallible people. It often falls short of it's ideals.<br /><br /> But, truly the whole center of Christian faith is not only to love God, but to love, and care for our neighbors as ourselves as well. How is this terrible?<br /><br />I came to faith in Christ as a relatively young person after plenty of seeking, and questioning intellectually. Certainly don't feel that I've ever checked my mind at the church door to this day. Not that I think I have all the answers, either.<br /><br />It's largely through my faith, that I've come to see that all people have intrinsic worth, and value apart from performance, including the disabled.<br /><br /> I'm much less judgemental, not expecting everyone to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I work in the human service field, and want to make a difference. Also, very concerned for the stewardship of the earth, seeing all creation as beautiful, and sacred.<br /><br />To me, atheism feels like an empty room.<br /><br /> Despite posting on these various blogs, it's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that there are actually folks out there who have made it their entire life's work, and mission to try and deliberately pull people away from their trust in God.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-78210936239484009232009-10-01T06:43:00.514-07:002009-10-01T06:43:00.514-07:00I'm not holding my breath for this one, but it...I'm not holding my breath for this one, but it'd also be cool if everyone concerned linked to blogs/sites that disagreed with them, although a blog like this one wouldn't neatly fit into a philosophical category.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-29890879663379756952009-10-01T06:36:49.540-07:002009-10-01T06:36:49.540-07:00I want to emphasize that I didn't mean my sugg...I want to emphasize that I didn't mean my suggestion of Harry starting his own blog as, "if you didn't like it, why didn't you just get lost."<br /><br />I don't know what John's up to at DC now, but it'd be great if he and the 25 people who used to be listed as contributors actually *would* prominently link to each other. I don't know why their writings so infrequently appeared there, but I take it they do write a lot, and it's a shame that we can't easily find what they have to say. <br /><br />Wouldn't a link listing any and all "affiliated" blogs/sites make everyone happy - and have been a good compromise all along?ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-34738311417001398262009-09-28T21:35:27.208-07:002009-09-28T21:35:27.208-07:00"...whatever the case is with that guy, the c..."...whatever the case is with that guy, the church should have had the foresight and good sense to protect him from behaving in ways that could potentially be harmful to him, such as this display that you seem to be making such a big fuss about."<br /><br />Protect him from what, exactly? The mockery and jeering that all of the disgusting little puss-filled zits like yourself and John have taken great pleasure in vomiting forth? <br /><br />Well, I agree with you there. This mans church should never have let him engage in the "harmful behavior" of singing in front of their congregation and not hiding the event from the public eye when his voice so clearly fails to measure up to the high standards of yourself and all the other crap-stains on youtube and DJ's blog. What a bunch of monsters.Veil of Absencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06601973501404791021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-37136575212083536302009-09-24T05:11:02.872-07:002009-09-24T05:11:02.872-07:00Harry
Good lookin' out my friend, your words ...Harry<br /><br />Good lookin' out my friend, your words really mean a lot. I mean, me and Harv mentioned together like that, wow. I don't know how thrilled Harvey will be, but I'm flattered.<br />Thanks again, good luck on any and or all your future endeavors, and I hope I see you around the blog world.<br /><br />Late, feenofeenohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07483769284197614547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-63443434823415404552009-09-23T14:49:53.132-07:002009-09-23T14:49:53.132-07:00Wow, I just visited DC and John totally redesigned...<b>Wow, I just visited DC and John totally redesigned the whole site dropping the list of fast exiting contributors including the only two women who might post something twice a year.</b><br /><br />I guess since John is running DC single handed and doing most all the posting, he saw little need for the “Dead Weight” of non functioning contributors.<br /><br />Feeno, thanks. Although I remain an atheist, it’s people like you, Harvey (DSHB) and several other I admire.<br /><br />What needs to be done is to define what a religion is and more particularly, exactly what is Christianity.<br /><br />What I was doing at DC was letting the Fundamentalist define Christianity for me then I was attacking it to hit at them.<br /><br /><b>Anyway Feeno, you are one hell of a great guy and both you and Harvey have my respect!</b>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-45500869995158860382009-09-23T05:59:40.335-07:002009-09-23T05:59:40.335-07:00Wow, I live a sheltered little life, I had no idea...Wow, I live a sheltered little life, I had no idea all this was going on. The first person I ever talked to on a computer in my whole life was John.(that was about a year ago) Although everything he said was total opposite of what I believed his personality and sense of humor brought me back to his site almost daily. (And Harry as well) (miss you Harry).<br /><br />Not that my opinion would be regarded at all, but I do feel I have something to add to this debate? First of all I read John's book, we actually met and he was kind enough to sign a copy for me. We ate lunch together and I also got to meet his lovely wife. Although John forgot his wallet and I got stuck with the bill it was a great time. <br /><br />People who have strong personalities and are as polarizing as Mr. Loftus will generally have "drama" in their life whether it be in or out of the Church. My point is simple, John is a good guy on the wrong side of God. He's about as evil as the rest of us? <br /><br />I told John once (and I meant it) "I hope your book doesn't cause anyone to leave Christianity, but I do hope it's a best seller". <br /><br />We all friends and family that don't think/believe like we do. But we still care about them. So hopefully Harry and John can patch things up so we can get back to calling each other names like delusional, brainwashed, or dumbass.<br /><br />Peace out, feenofeenohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07483769284197614547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-77509976561828890952009-09-23T04:01:01.691-07:002009-09-23T04:01:01.691-07:00And then there were seven….
The list of contribut...And then there were seven….<br /><br />The list of contributors at DC has now shrunk to 7 with the exit of Ed Babinski.<br /><br />Interesting!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-90516929576678650152009-09-22T10:54:56.915-07:002009-09-22T10:54:56.915-07:00John stated:
And as far as your experience bloggi...John stated: <br /><i>And as far as your experience blogging with me goes, I’m sorry to have to state for the record that you were the slowest learner I ever worked with at DC. I gave you simple instructions on how to post a comment and yet you hung the blog up twice. I also think one of your posts hung the blog up so badly I had to switch from the green colored standard blog format to the one we have now. Sure I can get a bit irate about that. It’s my house and you were acting like a drunk in it.</i><br /><br />RE: Whatever John. I'm not here to debate you about the past. <br /><br />Just as the 1964 hit by Gale Garnett stated: <b>We sang in the sunshine, now I’m on my way.</b><br />Listen at: <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzeCjluvxUHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-17259621363263739072009-09-21T21:03:14.808-07:002009-09-21T21:03:14.808-07:00If you do decide to ever change your mind Harry, p...If you do decide to ever change your mind Harry, please let me know.Truth Be Toldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02054029140219121029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-70731090886866114572009-09-21T19:36:26.571-07:002009-09-21T19:36:26.571-07:00TBT:
Thanks for the kind offer to join Debunking ...TBT:<br /><br />Thanks for the kind offer to join <i>Debunking Loftus</i>. <br /><br />But looking back, I honestly got too obsessed with John’s DC blog to the point where I was not really looking at the whole picture of the Judeo-Christian world and culture and I frankly became warped in my thinking.<br /><br />I would like to comment here every now and then on a blog topic and follow the debate.<br /><br />But thanks for the kind offer. <b>You have been a good and fair person with me.</b><br /><br />Regards,<br />Harry McCallHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-12477430665809140932009-09-20T20:19:43.356-07:002009-09-20T20:19:43.356-07:00Hi Harry,
if that really is you, I wish you well a...Hi Harry,<br />if that really is you, I wish you well and hope you find some peace.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-32030680676015485092009-09-20T16:05:25.262-07:002009-09-20T16:05:25.262-07:00Part 2:
Even if John debated William Lane Craig a...Part 2:<br /><br /><b>Even if John debated William Lane Craig and logically “Rip the man a new one.” in his apologetics and completely destroyed Craig to where he became a raging atheist, even proved to be a top poster on John’s DC; other than losing his seminary job and being given the boot by most all his student and admirers, the mental defeat and logical death of William Lane Craig would not cause any change in the vast Christian world to any real extent.</b><br /><br />Fact is Catholics, all the Orthodox Churches, the Mormons groups, the Jehovah Witnesses, most all Independent Fundamentalist churches, (And if you were to look at the <i>Table of Contents</i> of the churches in the <b>Handbook of Denominations in the United States</b>) you would find, apart from the few main line Evangelical Protestant sects, Craig is a small fish in a huge Christian religious expanse!<br /><br />I go to the gym at Furman University 2 -3 times a week and often work out on the Everlast Karate bag. I’ve beat the bag so hard I’ve straighten an S-hook causing the bag to hit the floor (having the chain to strike me across the top of my head, cutting it). <br /><br />I thought: “Man look at me! Look what I can do!” But, you know what? The next day, the bag is back hanging unchanged and my head is still cut where the chain had hit it.<br /><br />So Lee, just how many time have you, I, John or any other DC contributors posted a topic on DC after hours of work truly believing: “Man look at me! Look what I can do!” as we clicked off DC for the night and went to bed only to find the Christian religious logic (or illogics for you) still hanging un-phased at our post the next day? (If logic truly was the bases for Christianity, then Benny Hinn and a dozen other televangelists who prey upon the religious needful’s money would not be millionaires.)<br /><br />And the facts do show John does not understand this as he then lashes out at the vast membership of the Christian world as “Stupid” and “Idiots”. <br /><br />When he tells a man old enough to be his father (who has been educated in church all his life; maybe 70+ years) to “Get and education and then come back.” is like me at the gym telling the Everlast bag: “I knocked you off your chain once and I’ll do it again!” Thinking the bag can ever cared about my projection on to it (and me seriously wondering if I can keep it up after a chain across the head and, latter, a torn Rotor Cuff.)<br /><br />Fianlly Lee, could your rephrase of my statement be a Freudian Slip? You said: <i>The other eight defectors <b>a month</b> according to your claim don't seem to feel the need to be consoled.</i><br /><br />When I actually said: ...the fact that DC has a turn over rate of 8.3 contributors <b>per year</b>; an extremely high rate for any blog (Wonder why?). <br /><br /><b>I can’t come back to DC. I have had to face the above facts and the logics of reality.</b>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3226805636012568940.post-87076448226776902342009-09-20T15:58:18.509-07:002009-09-20T15:58:18.509-07:00Part 1:
Lee stated: Hi Harry, if you really are H...Part 1:<br />Lee stated: <i>Hi Harry, if you really are Harry McCall former DC contributor,<br />I'm sorry to see you over here, and I'm sorry to see that your arguments against John are so LOGICALLY fallacious.</i><br /><br /><b>Oh Really?</b> <br /><br />Tell you what Lee, as you read though the below comments and please tell me where my arguments against John are so LOGICALLY fallacious. (I noticed that with you <i>Logical</i> is an infallible word; <b>thus, I only have arguments and NOT logics that I use “against John”.</b>)<br /><br />Be it my use of Hebrew and Greek or your beliefs that religious logics just don’t add up, these will not make but a drop in the ocean of religious reality as to ever causing even one believer to become a defector. <br /><br /><b>Facts show people don’t come to Christianity because of logic and they certainly don’t leave because of logic either!</b> Oh yes, they are given dogmas and apologetics later, but that just gives them their sect’s individual distinction or exactly the same reason we find Lutherans not attending a Baptist seminary (and vice-versa) even though both are Christians.<br /><br />I’m told by my Mormon friends that <i>Fox New's</i>, Glenn Beck, is a very strong LDS Mormon. So Lee, do you believe he became a Mormon based on LOGICS of the Mormon religion? Hardly! He was a raging alcoholic and the Mormon religion gave him the religious dogma that alcohol is bad / evil as he himself can testify in his own life. They gave him friendship and life; not logics!<br /><br />Now Lee, since you are our <b>logic guru</b>, please tell me if you could logically destroy the LDS Mormon religion and have Glenn Beck NOT return to alcoholism? (Not any more than you can debunk the 12 points of AA.)<br /><br />Does the Mormon theology make logic sense? Is it true? <br /><br />Hey, it only matters to the believers in that THE CHURCH (LDS only as they beleive) is true and that truth WILL NEVER be based on any of your mathematical logic! But it IS based on the mental and social needs of their life and not Lee Randolph’s life needs and views! <br /><br />The fact of the matter Lee, is that no atheist or agnostic will ever take a religious belief away from a true believer, period! For the simple fact that one can not destroy a cherished belief and <b>then not give the now destroyed believer something in return to believe in / keep them going. Yes, you and I can over whelm some with an argument, but that will never convert them out of Christianity!</b> <br /><br />What you nor I ever seemed to realize while posting at DC is that 2 + 2 DOES NOT have to equal 4 in religion for Christianity to be true. As such, most posts at DC (including my own) are mostly nothing more that Don Quiotes tilting at imagery windmillsHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.com