John's Psychoanalysis

Here's one trend that's becoming common over at John's circle, and it involves a great deal of attempts at trying to encompass the mentality and mindset of Christians and reduce it to psychological terminology. While seemingly parroting this trend from the likes of folk such as Richard Dawkins, John Loftus seems fond of pointing out that a great deal of the Christian opposition is "deluded" and does so with the same flippant regard as Dawkins:

Many Christians treat skeptics like me as if I am the enemy to be debated and not a fellow human being interested in the truth. That is surely one of the marks of a brainwashed or deluded person too.

This is deliciously ironic. Seeing as John spends his time venting about how primtive and superstitious it is to subscribe to the tenets of Christianity, is it any mystery that he would, to some degree, be perceived as an "enemy to be debated"? In fact, the existence of DJ's blog doesn't really indicate he's interested in anything else but debating with Christians. He aims at trying to conjur up arguments and push the envelope of controversies in many cases. Now the question is, what is his aim when he writes posts such as these?

Perhaps it requires going back a little further in time to the original post John alludes too:

Below in no particular order are what I consider the ten marks (or characteristics) of a deluded person. I think even educated Christians will agree with most of them.

The fascinating thing about this line of reasoning is that we see it stemming from individuals totally without credentials in a psychological field, and yet nonetheless, these individuals (some of them highly respected and credible scientists like Dawkins) proceed to make psychological assessments. At first this seems harmless, but the effects of such statements and their influence on the impressionable (which in modern times seems to be the majority of the worldwide web) have dangerous and detrimental implications. The definition of delusion used here by John is defined on his own personal parameters, which in turn translates to his own opinionated viewpoint, not based on anything that mental health professionals deem to be "deluded." In essence, such a wreckless use of words means that anyone may call someone "not in tune with reality" delusional because they derived the defintion from Answers.com or other such similar means.

You might want to consider from this checklist how many of them apply to you. To the degree that more of them apply then the more likely you are deluded by your faith. Now it's quite possible that Christians can be deluded and yet their faith is true, in the same sense that a person might be brainwashed or indoctrinated into believing the truth. But the point is that if you're deluded then you have no reason to believe.

Overall, John is correct. And as a matter of fact, many Christians believe in their faith for no other good reason than they were brought up in those traditions, or it just so happens to be the religion of choice because they are most familiar with it. Not because they have examined and analyzed different perspectives or compared their own faith to other religions. Not because they have considered the possibility that they might be dead wrong. In other words, no critical thinking is included in the puzzle.

But now that we've already established the opinionated bias for this defintion of what it means to be delusional, what follows is going to be rather suspect. In the same light of John's opening statement here, it is also true that John may arrive to the right conclusions all for the wrong reasons (is John delusional perhaps?).

A deluded person is more likely than not one who...

2) As an adult never adopts nor cultivates the adult attitude of doubt. All adults must revisit the religious faith taught to them by their parents since #1 above is undeniably true. That means they must doubt. Doubt is the adult attitude.

This is of course dependent on the presence of a "religious faith" by which one has to be brought up in, unless of course John is meaning to imply that atheism, agnosticism and deism can be included in the list.

Furthermore John needs to establish the extent by which doubt is necessary to cultivate "the adult attitude of doubt." Is it more wise to be a skeptic or a cynic? Is doubt needed with regard to everything or only in the cases of religious faith? How can John except people to follow along with this reasoning if the words being used are not defined in specific terms?

3) Never reads widely or is exposed to other points of view in the media. I'm talking about non-fiction works about the sciences, different cultures, different faiths, and those written by skeptics or non-believers. To escape from being deluded, believers should read books that are written by people within different cultures and faith communities, and watch programs on the History Channel, National Geographic Channel, Discovery Channel, PBS, 60 Minutes, Dateline, and yes, YouTube.

Very nice John, well done. This means we can pretty much classify those living in third world countries without access to the internet, television, print, and the media as "deluded" for having the beliefs that they do. Let's also not forget scientific illiteracy. After all, it is the fault of the people in these given nations for not boning up on their organic chemistry and quantum physics, even if it might mean certain death for them at the hands of their own government or socioeconomic class. Bravo, bravo.

4) Does not travel widely including travel into different cultures. A deluded person only experiences a small slice of the pie. One must experience the world to see how others live. The more the better. Such a person basically stays within the social confines of like-minded religious people. The Amish are the extreme examples of this. Many believers only have believing friends. Even if believers cannot travel the world they can still step outside their social grouping to meet other people who think differently. Most believers do not trust people of different faiths or non-believers. Seek them out. Attend a freethinker's group meeting. Get to know them. Become friends with them.

More of a reiterated version of the previous point, and one that still doesn't do much justice for itself, let alone serve as sound advice on the behalf of others. Again, third world countries? What about India and the Caste System? If you are an untouchable, what then John? They are restrained to their own delusional prison imposed on them by government sanction and thousands of years of tradition?

5) Never studies deeply into the nature of his or her adopted faith. The more you know the less you believe, the less confident you become, and the more you doubt.

A reiteration of the first point (which we have already addressed) in that one is deluded by subscribing only to the faith they were brought up in. I tend to agree completely with John on points like these, but the only problem with this is that John must demonstrate that it is universal that the more one knows about their faith, the less they believe in it. This is not always true, and it may be that one chooses to study the "nature" of their faith and becomes even more convinced of it, even if it is contrary to common sense and logic. Allot of it just depends on the person more than what the person has studied and how much they know about their particular religion.

6) Lies in order to defend one's faith. There are plenty of examples of this, from faking stories about finding Noah's Ark, to fudging the truth when there is no reasonable response, to making up personal healing stories, to claiming a conversion from a position of intellectual atheism (versus a practical atheism) to Evangelical Christianity like Lee Strobel and David Wood, to personal and unjustified attacks on anyone who questions one's faith in order to poison the well against them, to debate tactics like the ones used by Bill Craig and Dinesh D'Souza who as debaters, just like boxers in a ring, are out to win the debate no matter what must be said in order to win it. These are liars for Jesus to various degrees. If you have to lie to defend your faith then you need help.

Trashing the name of your "former mentor" again are we John? It is funny that John has continued to push for a debate with Dr. Craig, but yet behind his back he chooses to make as many fatal jabs as he can.

Maybe there is something here which might indicate John suffers from a projection complex, now that we are referencing the subject of psychology. Because it is certainly the case, as we have often discussed in the infancy period of this blog, that John will also lie to save face, even when his position is without defensive merit. Need we dig up the past once more?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?97534-Doubting-John-He-Still-Lies-Today!

And John's truthful and intellectually honest response:

Technically, I didn't lie.

Prove to me I did.

Besides, it doesn't matter that you know I started the Blog. I don't care. People will still visit there regardless, and I will continue sending people there.

You are the dishonest one.

Hmmm..very interesting. John certainly seems like he's qualified to point out the delusion of lying for a position that clearly can't be defended, even through lying. That's because of course, despite the age of the incident itself, John is guilty on all counts of this himself.

Moving on...

7) Preaches to people who think differently rather than rationally engaging them. I am constantly amazed, bewildered, frustrated, and bored with the kind of responses I see from believers who comment here at DC. They come here preaching. They pontificate. They quote mine from the Bible. They even say we're going to hell with glee. Many of them merely mouth the words of the creeds and affirm what they believe, rather than actually engaging us with a rational discussion about the basis for believing in the first place. They come here preaching to us from an ancient superstitious set of texts rather than showing us why we should believe them in the first place.

Well John, again, that is really reflective of the type of atmosphere you create. You play mostly on the emotional aspects of Christianity rather than rationally engaging believers. Your blog is a treasure chest of arguments on how the existence of suffering negates an omnipotent and caring deity. You point to recent disasters (like the earthquake in Japan) as reasons for why God can't and doesn't exist. You hardly ever address things besides. You do not explain why calamities in the present support your arguments and yet those of the past do not matter so much (and this is not to say that your point isn't realized, I understand you do this to communicate to believers) and most importantly, you never address the fact that the people of ancient times were well aware of natural disasters simply based on the fact that suffering is a common theme throughout the Bible, and natural disasters have persisted forever.

8) Claims he or she does not need evidence to believe. Take notice Alvin Plantinga and Bill Craig! This is utterly delusional thinking especially when we consider all of the things they must take as properly basic beliefs coming from the witness of the Holy Spirit. As someone said, "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Anyone who claims his or her faith does not need evidence, even if true, ought to take a reality check.

Fair enough, but this means that the skeptic "community" can no longer define fatih as "belief in something without evidence." Right?

9) Must be convinced that his or her faith is impossible before seeing it as improbable. Time after time believers will claim I have not proved that their faith is impossible, and so lacking this kind of proof they still claim to have a reason to believe. However, we're always talking about probabilities. So even if it's still possible to believe in light of a number of problems for faith, it's still an improbable faith and that should be good enough.

Shaky grounds here. There are plenty of skeptics who would pick at aspects of religion (like the resurrection of Jesus) as impossible, and they play on this to suggest that without some sort of possibility factored into the equation, we can automatically reject the faith.

So this is a matter of whom you are addressing. And of course, it's one-sided and directed only at believers of faith.

10) Must denigrate the sciences in order to have faith. This is what I see time after time. Believers denigrate the sciences in a number of ways in order to believe. That's because faith demands it. Some believers don't even know what I'm talking about. Since science tells us prayer doesn't work then it doesn't work. It tells us the universe is 13.7 billion years old. It tells us we evolved. It tells us there was no Israelite Exodus from Egypt. It tells us the Nativity stories in the Gospels could not be true. It tells us virgins do not have babies. It tells us that dead people do not bodily rise from the grave. Christians must denigrate science in order to believe. Science or Faith? Science has a track record. Faith flies planes into buildings. Science all the way, hands down. End of story.

And now ladies and gentlemen, the jaw-dropping unanticipated climax to John's rant on psychoanalyzing religious believers.

Science tells us prayer doesn't work? Science says virgins don't have babies? All of this is of course in light of the fact that John moans about how believers don't engage him with rational discourse. Well, if one were to put faith into a box comprised of denial and refusal to consider evidence, and defines faith as a reliance on these aspects yet expects believers to back their faith with evidence, then it stands that John would have believers do the logically impossible. Contradict their own stances while somehow maintaining them in a non-contradictory fashion.

Clearly someone doesn't take the time to work out the kinks to their own arguments and assessments of mind.

Loftus "SLAM DUNKS" William Lane Craig?

For those people that don't know, or haven't been around the neighborhood of Loftus enough, Dr. William Lane Craig is a popular Christian apologist with a doctorate in philosophy and other related subjects. WLC is related to Loftus in that he is now his former mentor as self-admitted here: I have the near equivalent of a Ph.D. in the Philosophy or Religion/Apologetics (three master's degrees and Ph.D. studies). I majored under William Lane Craig and earned a Th.M. degree at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in 1985.

For the few years I've gotten to know John, I've learned that he's very egotized when it comes to this simple fact about his personal history. I think his intention behind making the matter publically known is self-explanatory: William Lane Craig is an apologist for Christianity, and John is an apostate for Christianity. Two polar opposites in the same basket: WLC the teacher, and Johnny Appleseed the student. Put two and two together, you get a student who somehow manages to surpass the teacher! Wow, that's credibility!

Another fundamental difference between Craig and Loftus is that Craig has authored a countless number of books about different subjects all correlating to what Loftus argues against in his blog. John, on the other hand, has authored......err....um.....one single book? If you search "John W. Loftus" on Amazon.com, you'll be suprised if you come up with little more than a handful of books by John, all essentially under the same exact title, or at least, all about the same exact topic, yet refined here and there (depending on book copy). You see, John has this obsession of his that his books needs constant perfecting...over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Certain prior versions to John's contemporary update of his book may be sold for three times the price you would get for a new copy. Quite honestly, I'm not sure if John keeps good enough track of his book versions from time to time, as he often updates his cumulative text as much as the Apple Company comes up with some new fancy edition of what was once known simply as "The iPod."

Most TWebbers are by necessity, Christian. They spend a great deal more time than I ever would involved in forums that pertain to Dr. Craig and his works, or any other popular apologist. Apparently, as pointed out by TWebber Pumbelo, John's been looking for other outlets in which to avoid "the sewer" he frequents on occassion (I guess, for a momentary time period in his life, John aspires to develop consistency). John took recent events in academia in which there was a debate between Dr. Craig and the recent doctorate-holder, Richard Carrier. See the comments for yourself and judge whether or not John's statements to be made are full of double standards and pretentious ego:

I didn't think Carrier did badly although I do question why he focused on that which he did.

Still, even if Dr. Craig won this debate as some have said, what does that show? Nothing that I can tell, at least not to me. Craig is a formidable debater having started out by being on a High School debate team. And Craig is very knowledgeable on these issues having written or contributed to many books on these topics. One would guess there isn't anything an opponent could say that Craig hasn't already considered before. And given his huge advantage as a skilled debater his opponents don't have much of a chance to win.

But Craig is wrong. Jesus did not rise up from the dead. Craig is merely giving answers to beliefs he adopted in his teenage years for less than intelligent reasons. Dead people do not rise up from the grave. They can't. Such a thing is fairy tale wishful thinking unbecoming of what best represents scholarship. He has a presumption in favor of that which he seeks to defend. He marshalls together all of the confirming evidence based upon conjecture after conjecture, and he discounts all of the disconfirming evidence. I'm not saying this is intellectual dishonesty, but if anyone is actually persuaded by his historical case then I have a piece of property on Mars I want to sell him. Such a person is deluded.

There can be no historical confirmation of such an event that would ever persuade an intellectually honest person. One must first be able to cross over Lessing's Broad Ugly Ditch, which cannot be done with historical evidence. Hence Craig's case is doomed. He even admitted so in a Q & A about Lessing's ditch. So the rest is a shell game, a charade, a sham. He's like an emperor with no clothes on smiling at the crowds as he parades down the streets where everyone pretends not to notice he's naked. He is naked. I can see this plain as day, and it's very embarrassing.

Debate skills don't prove anything to me. Even having the knowledge he has doesn't prove anything to me. People can have a great deal of knowledge more than I do on a topic and be dead wrong about their conclusions. That describes Craig. He's a deluded man--a brainwashed man from his youth. A likeable man, no doubt, for I like him a great deal and consider him a friend. But he desperately needs an intervention soon.

Harsh words for a former college mentor. Indeed, extremely harsh...and very pretentious. My feelings on John's intention by parading himself as a former WLC student have now been confirmed as fact. It is also extremely pretentious that John would ridicule Craig for the circumstances of his religious preferences, and not being sensitive to those areas considering John has "been there before." And the possibility that Craig could be right, and John could be wrong, is simply non-existent in John's mind. He's found the answers, through his mentor's training, and has utilized his experiences to his advantage. Hence, he reigns superior. It's nothing short of pretentiousness, in reality.

I wonder if Craig considers John to be his "friend" when John makes posts like these:

I learned from DC member Darrin at the Carrier/Craig debate that Craig said he would not debate his former students. That's what he said. I am now classed with a group of people, i.e., the people comprised of his former students. And Dr. Craig says he will not debate anyone in that class of people. Okay, I guess. But given the fact that I'm probably the only member of this class of people who wants to debate him he might as well have said: "I will not debate John W. Loftus."I've heard him say this before about former students, so it’s not really like he’s singling me out, or is it? While I was a student of his he said something I thought was odd at the time. This was back in 1985 at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine." Keep in mind that Dr. Craig was on a High School debate team and has been debating these topics for probably just as long as I've been thinking about them. And he had only been teaching a few years before this to actually know of any student who might want to debate him. But that’s what he said. Again, he said "the person I fear debating the most is a former student of mine."

He cannot deny saying this, and I don't think he will.

I wouldn't doubt the possibility that John has become accustomed to using reverse psychology on his readers, whether they agree with him or not. Actually, it's not even so much a possibility, as it is a truth. That can be deduced from John's blog shenanigans a couple of years ago. And John's largely inflated ego and overall low argumentative intelligence, give me the impression that this is no different. Am I expected to believe that John's former professor who has authored many more books than he ever has is somehow afraid to debate him, or that he even said what John claims he said back in 1985? I'm not buying it, and I don't think anyone else should subject themselves to buying it either.

Does he really fear me? I don’t know. But just maybe he does after all. He could change his mind though. I think a lot of people would be interested in this match-up.

If he changes his mind let me suggest a debate topic: Evangelical Christianity is More Probable Than Any Other Alternative. Why should he want to debate any other topic? This is what he believes is it not?

Since John basically argues against Evangelical Christianity, and makes that highlight out to be the entire depiction of Christianity, how are we going to believe that Craig is convinced that evangelism is the most probable alternative as John would have this debate titled? So John is not only being pretentious here, but additionally presumptous. The sad thing is, most of his subscribers believe him, uncritically.

While our good hero DJ presumes that TWeb is a "sewer" to be avoided, he isn't getting the good reception he would like to have from elsewhere:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...6&postcount=56

"Forget about trying to win friends and influence people; this kind of obnoxious bluster is the reason that many people don't take you seriously. If you kept better control of your tongue, more people might be interested in what you have to say. But the unargued assertions and name calling in which you're indulging here are not a good advertisement.

Hey John, by the way, how many times has it been now that you've written the same book? Wait, let me guess, your next book it going to be about how you were once a Christian and now you're an atheist! Wow! I've never heard that one before (especially from you John)! It's time for another topic John!!!"

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/rfforum/show_single_post?pid=32671070&postcount=58

"Look John, we know you've been doing everything to make your name off of Dr. Craig's. You name drop him like a baby drops bombs. Coming here in this forum and being an arrogant jerk just makes you look like a clown. I wonder if you can go at least one year without mentioning Dr. Craig's name."

It's just as fellow TWebber "Mountain Man" once stated:

"And he thinks he has it rough here at TheologyWeb."

Amen to that.