I'll start with an admission of bias: I'm someone who has been around people with disabilities for a long time. My stepfather and grandfather were totally blind. My mother was a teacher of students with disabilities for many years. I married a wonderful woman who is legally blind and has other minor health issues.
That's why John Loftus is about to get his can kicked again by me here, for his birthday post titled, "At 55 Today I'm Wondering If I Can Book This Guy in Advance to Sing at My Funeral! LOL"
In case he takes it down....John links to a YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ZU3YpLM18 in which a man in church with some sort of speech impediment works his way through Amazing Grace. The video title (and whoever posted it this way deserves as much scorn as John does) implies that the man is a former crackhead, though it's far from clear that he is. He may have some type of disability; a speech impediment like this one could have any number of causes. But regardless of the cause, to post such a thing in mockery is a disgrace, and for John to make fun of it this way is triply disgraceful.
Let's be reminded that John has a record for mocking people with disabilities. As Truth be Told, our host here, noted in his chapter for The Cowboy Who Wasn't There:
***
Perhaps one of the most shameful moments for Loftus came after a time after he debated TWeb member "ApologiaPhoenix" (Nick Peters) on the problem of evil. The consensus of TWeb members was that Nick handily defeated Loftus in debate. To set this up, it should be noted that Nick has a disability (Asperger's Syndrome, with some autism). After realizing that he was not the recognized winner of the debate, Loftus wrote:
No one but the ignorant would claim that I am ignorant.
To me Nick is just like a very bad Karaoke singer but doesn't know he is one, so he continues to badly sing out his song of arguments
Because he's handicapped, Christians here won't tell him otherwise. He's going to study to be an apologist, but he will fall flat on his face. There are a great many people in ministry who will fall flat on their faces because no one told them the truth that they should not pursue such goals. Nick is one of them. But since Christians believe God can make clay into gold they encourage him in faith, even though deep down inside they really don't believe it.
Tell him the truth! Save him from pursuing what will be a dead end career for him.
Nick, when you realize you don't have the brain power for being an apologist and your hopes and dreams are dashed, and possibly even you faith, remember who told you the truth. It was me.
Do something else with your life, and I'm serious.
For the record, it should be noted that even at this early stage in his career, several notable names have recognized Nick's talent in this area, notably Norman Geisler.
***
Although John's arm was twisted to the point that he issued a half-hearted apology for this commentary, it is obvious from this last post of his that he hasn't learned his lesson. I often say that fundy atheists like John retain a certain amount of bigotry from the fundy past, and this is a classic example.
And of course, typical of John, he can't even own up and makes excuses when called down. "Rob R" gave John a good lashing for this that deserves to be noted:
Do we know that this guy actually damaged his mind on drugs? He could've been born with mental retardation.Careful John. You know what scripture says about those who mock the poor (and it would seem the same logic of that consideration applies to the poor of mind).So just what human dignity and worth can we say that he has in a materialistic picture?
Loftus' reply speaks for itself in terms of his arrogance and ignorant bigotry:
You're a killjoy Rob. It's my birffday and I can have fun if I want to. So there.
You're absolutely right, John. It's your birthday. Go out and have some fun. Why don't you celebrate some more by pulling crutches away from people with polio, giving blind people the wrong bill back for change, and kicking Stepen Hawking's wheelchair down a steep incline? How about you start a show titled America's Funniest Disabilities? You'd be the perfect host since you obviously have a very serious one. Unfortunately, there's no cure or medication for the one you have, which is outright bigotry combined with magnified stupidity.
Happy Birthday, John, you jackass.
Friday, September 18, 2009
49 comments:
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Absolute and total jerk. Throw in Jason Long.
ReplyDeleteJason Long said...
Ironically, I could only bear 55 seconds of this. Best evidence of atheism ever found because no god would ever allow this!
10:46 AM, September 18, 2009
John's recent behavior can be well compared to what this guy tries to attempt in a lousy impersonation of Stephen Hawking:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbbyQJKRgxQ
Congratulations John, you've just demonstrated that you are a gutless puke. Please choke on your vomit, you scumbag.
The one thing DJ is worthy of is being inflicted with a limp leg for not only for this haughty mockery, but his arrogant response, that oughta school him in messing with disabled persons. Lucky for him I live nowhere near Angola.
ReplyDeleteThe comments on the video make me feel unclean.
ReplyDeletePART 1
ReplyDeleteI read John’s Damage Control excuse for making sport of this person on his 55th birthday, and I must say this is simply par for the course for John at DC.
The video is listed twice on You-tube as: Never Let A Crackhead Sing At Your Wedding - HILARIOUS and Never Let A Crackhead Sing At Your Funeral
There is no doubt in my mind that this young man is handicapped either mentally challenged, physically or both. Yet this young Man is very religious.
It is apparent that this young man is in a white church (As seen by the lady’s hand and heard in the background voices). Plus, since there were NO jeers and laughter from the congregation, this tells me that even though handicapped, he is bringing his Widow’s Mite offering in the form of a song to honor HIS Lord and Savior; Jesus Christ.
Moreover, the fact that this young man had a resounding Amen, Amen, Amen from the pastor and applause from the congregation also tells me that this small gift of struggle and praise was accepted with deep affection by this congregation.
Unlike some hard core atheists I know (who would drowned a baby in the Baptismal Font if they could to prove a point against God), the fact that this young man was allowed to struggle though his song proved the love that Christianity can offer to the out cast and down trodden.
While You-tube and John’s birthday spoof made sport of this man’s infirmities, the fact that this congregation allowed him to sing his heart felt song made him feel like a million dollars in the eyes of his God.
I’m sure this small event gave meaning to his life often mocked by a narcissistic and uncaring world.
In short, John’s DC excused is that these sub-human individuals should be kept out of sight and forgotten. (And by-the-way John, this was a loving and caring church he was singing at and not American Idol!)
PART 2
ReplyDeleteSecondly and on a more personal level, I was never sure whether DC really was about Debunking Christianity or promoting John’s ego or, I might say, promoting John’s ego at the expense of Debunking Christianity.
I know that when I first started at DC, I found that John deleted one of my posts for no reason at all.
A another time, when I new to the blogging world and not sure just how to post a topic and edit it under the Google format, John would send me an email telling me how sick and tired he was of cleaning up my posts and that, if I wanted to continue to posting at DC, then I’d better get my act together!
A third time, when I would edit and format something on DC’s pre-posting Google sight, I failed to realized that when I cut it to pasted it on the DC blog without SAVE, the original copy was still left in edit mode.
This set John off in a rage and, without warning, he not only filed a complaint with another DC contributor (who told me what John said about how stupid I was). John sent me an email telling me: “Clean up your damn crap!”
There were many times I had to stop and ask myself: Why the hell am I even here at DC???!! John’s only use of his DC contributors is if they can advance his ego though his blog by letting the world know John IS THE MAN!
Plus, (I also thought to myself) as a pastor, John must have been a tyrant! Frankly, I would hatred to have been an assistant pastor at John’s church under his direct control! (The wrath of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible poured out on the disobedient Israelites is compatible to John’s own wrath against anyone who makes an honest mistake or happens to be handicapped.)
The fact that 25 former contributors left DC in the three years of its existence provides us with the fact that DC has a turn over rate of 8.3 contributors per year; an extremely high rate for any blog (Wonder why?).
Even now, a quick count of the last 28 posts (Starting at Sept. 19) shows that , John wrote 26 while only 3 or a mere 10% were posted by only 2 of the 8 others. In other words, if we consider the remaining 8 DC contributors to be pistons in an 8 cylinder engine, then John DC blog is running on one cylinder!
In retrospect, the reality is that John’s labeling many sincere Christians who asked a honest question at DC as “idiots” and other derogatory names is in entirely on par with the way he views this handicapped man.
Just might it be that if this handicapped young man was not black, he just might not have been on You-tube labeled as a “Crack Head”? Might this reveal Stereo Typing of ethic groups?
Happy birthday John and may you never have a disabling stroke! But, incase you do, we might just see you posted in a video on You-tube as you struggle with your new handicapped life giving a narcissistic world a good laugh!
Aren't Blogspot accounts free?
ReplyDeleteMaybe the solution all along should have been that you each just link to each other's blog sites and do it all your own way.
"Also check out my good friend Loftus'/McCall's blog, at ____"
I'd still like to see you start one. I miss your articles.
I'd still like to see you start one. I miss your articles.
ReplyDeleteHarry is welcome to make posts here if he so chooses. I sent out an invitation in the event he wishes to refrain from creating his own blog, all he has to do is approve it. I talked this over with Holding and he's fine with it as long as there isn't any head butting between the two. McCall has already demonstrated some major deathblows against John's case as a former DC contributor.
Anyways, it's my policy that if you are going to get rid of someone and ban them, do it for a REAL reason. Honestly Harry, that is bullshit. But I know it's John. It always has been. That's not rocket science.
What does earn a banning in my book is all merit-based, not on how much a person can shine their badge or how good of a job they are being an asskisser.
So it's an open opportunity for you, Harry. If you choose to decline because of "ego wars", that's fine too, of course.
I’ll keep this as short as possible.
ReplyDeleteHarry is as good at determining the circumstances around the guy who cannot sing as he was when he claimed that I was posting as Andius. The truth is that I didn’t think that guy was mentally challenged when I posted it and I’m not sure the evidence is there for the claim that he is. None of us know much at all of the actual details of that video to make any blanket statements. But I do have a much greater love and respect than God does for anyone who is mentally or physically challenged. I would never let something like that happen in the first place and/or I would certainly heal them instantly.
Harry, I’ve already answered several of your accusations in this post and also here in this thread. Why do you continue repeating them when I’ve already answered them? The fact is that any blog having more than one contributor will probably have problems between bloggers. Hell if we want some statistics this very blog lost one contributor already, akakiwibear, who recently wrote on his own blog: “My diversion to Debunking John Loftus was a mistake. I should have watched to see how the blog developed - it is simply not my style. I may not agree with JWL, but I do not know him, to like or dislike, so I am not comfortable with the personal tone on Debunking Loftus.”
So given the fact that this Blog has been up and running for, oh, three months, then statistically this blog is doing worse than mine has.
And as far as your experience blogging with me goes, I’m sorry to have to state for the record that you were the slowest learner I ever worked with at DC. I gave you simple instructions on how to post a comment and yet you hung the blog up twice. I also think one of your posts hung the blog up so badly I had to switch from the green colored standard blog format to the one we have now. Sure I can get a bit irate about that. It’s my house and you were acting like a drunk in it. I can surely tell someone to straighten up or ship out of my house. After all, as ismellarat just wrote, why didn’t you start your own blog rather than use mine to give you access to over 40,000 visitors a month? Other bloggers have used me as well. They come on to DC just to promote their own blogs. When they get a big enough audience they quit DC. But I don’t mind if they do. It’s good with me. People have been using others since the dawn of time. If we each get something out of the relationship everyone is happy. What surprises me is that you didn’t realize this. I’m not a user. But we all use people from time to time. You used me, ya see!
So when it comes to following simple instructions you just don’t do well, do you? What’s not to understand about: “Harry, please write for me a chapter on child sacrifice?” And what’s not to understand about: “The deadline for your chapter is July 1st at the latest.” I don’t see anything difficult to understand about what I had asked you to do. Why do you blame me when I didn’t accept your chapter for publication? It IS sour grapes what you're now doing. You are exhibit "A" that shows me correct when I say that skeptics do not have a corner on rationality. you'r enot acting rational here with this.
As far as I’m concerned Harry, you’re not doing me any damage here in this rat hole sewer. These people hate me for what I stand against. Your comments here do little more than confirm what Holding has always said about you. So if you’re longing for some respect you won’t get it here. You’re being used. I guess you just don’t understand that. Holding will trash you at the first opportunity that presents itself when you get out of line.
Cheers, Harry. Come back home. I haven’t changed at all. I’m hoping you have.
Since no one has linked to what I thought was funny about the guy who cannot sing here it is. We may not agree on whether the church leadership did wrong, if you disagree with me, but you can hardly say I don't care for handicapped people when I merely think church leaders should be honest with people about their abilities and potential.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to Nick Peters this is the same thing I was doing with him. He lost that debate with me miserably but rather than say anything critical about his performance all he received was unqualified praise for beating me when he didn't. TWebbers basically lied to him.
There are people in ministry who fail miserably because no one told them from the outset that they shouldn't pursue it. As a result, some of them lose their faith while others become depressed and/or have to start all over again in another career at a later time in life. I was telling what I thought was the truth at the time.
For the record, it does look like I was wrong about Nick though. He does indeed seem to be doing well as an apologist so far. But if you'll remember, I also said he could thank me for telling him what I did if it inspired him to become a good apologist, since all he ever got was unqualified praise for a lousy attempt at defending his faith a few years back.
The truth is that I didn’t think that guy was mentally challenged when I posted it and I’m not sure the evidence is there for the claim that he is. None of us know much at all of the actual details of that video to make any blanket statements. But I do have a much greater love and respect than God does for anyone who is mentally or physically challenged. I would never let something like that happen in the first place and/or I would certainly heal them instantly.
ReplyDeleteYou are a bigotted asshat, John Loftus. Plain and simple. What you think and what is are two completely different things, and especially in your case. And what's your point, anyways? Let's say he really didn't have anything wrong with him to begin with. Why are you all of a sudden the judge of such matters that have nothing to do with you, your "arguments", and atheism in general. What is communual unity to you, a talent contest? A beauty pageant?
You're a sick, sick man, John. You need to re-evaluate just what kind of a person you really are deep down inside. No matter what you say or how you say it, you know deep down inside you are guilty of reprehensible acts and yet, by your own backwards morals, have elected not to do anything about them to rectify your predicament, unless of course you can do so using blogs such as these. ;)
In any event, you are now awaiting charges of not only being a complete scoundrel, but you're carelessly offensive as well. I have an official diagnosis on the autism disorder spectrum on my papers of old. I have the same diagnosis Nick does. And you remember what you said to Nick, don't you?
I don't care for your excuses and I don't want to hear your absurd rationalizations. There is little to no difference insulting someone because of their genetics and saying they shouldn't be allowed to be a part of their local community because they aren't top-notch like Hollywood celebrities. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for having the mind-numbing stupidity to post this type of ignorant excrement.
Continued:
ReplyDeleteSo given the fact that this Blog has been up and running for, oh, three months, then statistically this blog is doing worse than mine has.
You are bad at math, because you clearly can't count. This blog has been in existence since March of 2009, Lofty. That means we've been around for almost seven months. But nice try.
It’s my house and you were acting like a drunk in it. I can surely tell someone to straighten up or ship out of my house
And this just so happens to be "my house". Yet you come on here trying to make the rules and set the standards. You keep in mind and remind yourself that I have allowed you to post here, even when we pretty much have your motivations for doing so figured out. Mark my words, if you do keep up your hypocritical megalomaniac persona here, I will not tolerate any more of your comments. So while here, you WILL abide to the rules I have established. Or you can get the hell out.
People have been using others since the dawn of time. If we each get something out of the relationship everyone is happy. What surprises me is that you didn’t realize this. I’m not a user. But we all use people from time to time. You used me, ya see!
I personally can't tell what hole in your body you use to defecate.
As far as I’m concerned Harry, you’re not doing me any damage here in this rat hole sewer.
If this were true you wouldn't be posting comments here, now would you? And if I'm wrong, you'll be the first to point it out and give evidence as to why this is the case, won't you?
These people hate me for what I stand against.
There is absolutely no evidence for this claim whatsoever. You should really provide evidence when you make such assertions, otherwise people will see you as a hypocrite (whoops).
Your comments here do little more than confirm what Holding has always said about you. So if you’re longing for some respect you won’t get it here. You’re being used. I guess you just don’t understand that. Holding will trash you at the first opportunity that presents itself when you get out of line.
More unproven self-projections. Don't lie to us and say that you're not affected by what McCall has said about you on this blog. You are. You wouldn't be here if you weren't.
You really should not be talking on behalf of anyone and where and who they are getting their respect from. Who are you to decide such things? Unlike you, I have the good common sense to not make asinine posts about people with disorders, whether physical, mental, or psychiatric. It's one of those American taboos that would get you an angry mob, like the one you have with TWeb right now...
Cheers, Harry. Come back home. I haven’t changed at all. I’m hoping you have.
That's exactly the reason why he probably left you in the first place.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Harry, if you really are Harry McCall former DC contributor,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to see you over here, and I'm sorry to see that your arguments against John are so LOGICALLY fallacious.
Lets put it this way. I've had potentially inflammatory exchanges with John, but they were usually misunderstandings of the type that are common and inherent in text only communication. If we called each other, which I have only once, I'm sure it would have been even easier to resolve. John's removed, re-positioned and deleted some of my posts too, but he had good reasons. In one case I was mucking around with the html in my posts, so the one he deleted probably had to be deleted to restore the functionality of the template.
I fixed it, republished it.
No Problem, My Ego Survived.
Yes, I have an ego too, and evidently you do too and its bleeding profusely, and you seem to me to be looking for sympathy.
I've been contributing at DC for over 2 years and the only time I ever think about quitting is when I am finding it hard to find the time or hard to muster up the motivation to shred the same argument for the 10th time.
Contributing to a blog like DC, keeping the quality up, and trying to remain civil is emotionally taxing, so its not surprising to me that we have such a high turnover rate.
You could even claim (fallaciously) I'm a defector too, because if you look at my post frequency, I have dropped to 1.something a month from the 3 or 4 that I used to. Its not because of Johns Ego. Not because of My Ego, and not because of your Ego, its because it is hard work, a labor of love and it doesn't give me a paycheck.
Now lighten up will you? Everything's going to be okay. The other eight defectors a month according to your claim don't seem to feel the need to be consoled.
Hi all,
ReplyDeletethis is the last post then I'm out of here,
you can have the last word.
Ahhh, there it is, like a cool breeze on a warm summers day.....the scintillating feel of Irony in the air....
Here's the characterization.....
You're a sick, sick man, John. You need to re-evaluate just what kind of a person you really are deep down inside.
so according to the claimant, they believe there is something wrong with John to the point of being sick to the second power......
Here is the display of sympathetic nurturing......
You are a bigotted asshat, John Loftus.
And here is the rebuke to John, blind to the fact that they are doing the same thing, just as blind as they are to their circular arguments for the christian God.
There is little to no difference insulting someone because of their genetics and saying they shouldn't be allowed to be a part of their local community because they aren't top-notch like Hollywood celebrities. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for having the mind-numbing stupidity to post this type of ignorant excrement.
See, if Johns stupid, you have just insulted him for something he has little control over, since a rational person wouldn't want to be stupid would they?
And if Johns not stupid, then he's right that there is a place and a time for everything, and whatever the case is with that guy, the church should have had the foresight and good sense to protect him from behaving in ways that could potentially be harmful to him, such as this display that you seem to be making such a big fuss about.
You my friends are just as guilty of what you claim John is guilty of by mischaracterizing him and putting him on display.
After analyzing you guys arguments for over two years, I think it boils down to oversimplification, which is what I used to call ignoring qualifiers. You need to think about the details of what it is you are about to write. It would improve your game.
giggle, giggle, smirk :-)
You've got me, Lee. I'm a fish without water...
ReplyDeleteDid Loftus put you up to this by any chance?
He's just the axis of evil, isn't he! ;-)
ReplyDeletetruth be told,
ReplyDeletethat's what I'm talking about.
you've got to think a couple of moves ahead.
I'd be stupid to say yes.
If I said no, why should you believe me?
therefore it was a pointless question.
Now this is amusing. If I were to drop out of the ministry, that's because of Loftus. If I go on and succeed, that's because Loftus drove me to it.
ReplyDeleteGet over yourself dude. My world doesn't revolve around you. My success is because I work at it and I depend on my friends. It's certainly not because of you.
Nick, you still cannot make the simple distinctions necessary to be a good apologist. I only claimed that I may have been an influence on you, provoking you to do better. I never claimed such an absurd thing as that your success as an apologist or in ministry depended on anything I said.
ReplyDeleteTake a simple logic class and then thank me later for suggesting that you do.
And even if I have had no effect on you at all, I never thought the world revolved around me in any sense at all.
You people are stupid on the level of a poached egg.
All this A-prime commentary by Jackass John is simply awesome. It couldn't have been better if he had come out in favor of awarding Pol Pot the Nobel Peace Prize.
ReplyDeleteJohn's whole life must be spent glorifying himself for things he's done wrong and accomplishments that he can only wish of achieving.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, it does look like I was wrong about Nick though. He does indeed seem to be doing well as an apologist so far.
ReplyDeleteLater...
Nick, you still cannot make the simple distinctions necessary to be a good apologist.
Oh???
You people are stupid on the level of a poached egg.
You're so stupid you don't even know the numerical difference between three and seven. Who's "handicapped" now, moron?
Wow... DJ really goes a long way to make himself look bad, just look at these comments:
ReplyDeleteNick, you still cannot make the simple distinctions necessary to be a good apologist. I only claimed that I may have been an influence on you, provoking you to do better. I never claimed such an absurd thing as that your success as an apologist or in ministry depended on anything I said.
Yet we find on T web after the debate in question:
Because he's handicapped, Christians here won't tell him otherwise. He's going to study to be an apologist, but he will fall flat on his face. There are a great many people in ministry who will fall flat on their faces because no one told them the truth that they should not pursue such goals. Nick is one of them. But since Christians believe God can make clay into gold they encourage him in faith, even though deep down inside they really don't believe it.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1790304&postcount=116
So DJ, do your own words taken directly from a post on T web reflect what you said here? Yes or no?
Part 1:
ReplyDeleteLee stated: Hi Harry, if you really are Harry McCall former DC contributor,
I'm sorry to see you over here, and I'm sorry to see that your arguments against John are so LOGICALLY fallacious.
Oh Really?
Tell you what Lee, as you read though the below comments and please tell me where my arguments against John are so LOGICALLY fallacious. (I noticed that with you Logical is an infallible word; thus, I only have arguments and NOT logics that I use “against John”.)
Be it my use of Hebrew and Greek or your beliefs that religious logics just don’t add up, these will not make but a drop in the ocean of religious reality as to ever causing even one believer to become a defector.
Facts show people don’t come to Christianity because of logic and they certainly don’t leave because of logic either! Oh yes, they are given dogmas and apologetics later, but that just gives them their sect’s individual distinction or exactly the same reason we find Lutherans not attending a Baptist seminary (and vice-versa) even though both are Christians.
I’m told by my Mormon friends that Fox New's, Glenn Beck, is a very strong LDS Mormon. So Lee, do you believe he became a Mormon based on LOGICS of the Mormon religion? Hardly! He was a raging alcoholic and the Mormon religion gave him the religious dogma that alcohol is bad / evil as he himself can testify in his own life. They gave him friendship and life; not logics!
Now Lee, since you are our logic guru, please tell me if you could logically destroy the LDS Mormon religion and have Glenn Beck NOT return to alcoholism? (Not any more than you can debunk the 12 points of AA.)
Does the Mormon theology make logic sense? Is it true?
Hey, it only matters to the believers in that THE CHURCH (LDS only as they beleive) is true and that truth WILL NEVER be based on any of your mathematical logic! But it IS based on the mental and social needs of their life and not Lee Randolph’s life needs and views!
The fact of the matter Lee, is that no atheist or agnostic will ever take a religious belief away from a true believer, period! For the simple fact that one can not destroy a cherished belief and then not give the now destroyed believer something in return to believe in / keep them going. Yes, you and I can over whelm some with an argument, but that will never convert them out of Christianity!
What you nor I ever seemed to realize while posting at DC is that 2 + 2 DOES NOT have to equal 4 in religion for Christianity to be true. As such, most posts at DC (including my own) are mostly nothing more that Don Quiotes tilting at imagery windmills
Part 2:
ReplyDeleteEven if John debated William Lane Craig and logically “Rip the man a new one.” in his apologetics and completely destroyed Craig to where he became a raging atheist, even proved to be a top poster on John’s DC; other than losing his seminary job and being given the boot by most all his student and admirers, the mental defeat and logical death of William Lane Craig would not cause any change in the vast Christian world to any real extent.
Fact is Catholics, all the Orthodox Churches, the Mormons groups, the Jehovah Witnesses, most all Independent Fundamentalist churches, (And if you were to look at the Table of Contents of the churches in the Handbook of Denominations in the United States) you would find, apart from the few main line Evangelical Protestant sects, Craig is a small fish in a huge Christian religious expanse!
I go to the gym at Furman University 2 -3 times a week and often work out on the Everlast Karate bag. I’ve beat the bag so hard I’ve straighten an S-hook causing the bag to hit the floor (having the chain to strike me across the top of my head, cutting it).
I thought: “Man look at me! Look what I can do!” But, you know what? The next day, the bag is back hanging unchanged and my head is still cut where the chain had hit it.
So Lee, just how many time have you, I, John or any other DC contributors posted a topic on DC after hours of work truly believing: “Man look at me! Look what I can do!” as we clicked off DC for the night and went to bed only to find the Christian religious logic (or illogics for you) still hanging un-phased at our post the next day? (If logic truly was the bases for Christianity, then Benny Hinn and a dozen other televangelists who prey upon the religious needful’s money would not be millionaires.)
And the facts do show John does not understand this as he then lashes out at the vast membership of the Christian world as “Stupid” and “Idiots”.
When he tells a man old enough to be his father (who has been educated in church all his life; maybe 70+ years) to “Get and education and then come back.” is like me at the gym telling the Everlast bag: “I knocked you off your chain once and I’ll do it again!” Thinking the bag can ever cared about my projection on to it (and me seriously wondering if I can keep it up after a chain across the head and, latter, a torn Rotor Cuff.)
Fianlly Lee, could your rephrase of my statement be a Freudian Slip? You said: The other eight defectors a month according to your claim don't seem to feel the need to be consoled.
When I actually said: ...the fact that DC has a turn over rate of 8.3 contributors per year; an extremely high rate for any blog (Wonder why?).
I can’t come back to DC. I have had to face the above facts and the logics of reality.
Hi Harry,
ReplyDeleteif that really is you, I wish you well and hope you find some peace.
TBT:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the kind offer to join Debunking Loftus.
But looking back, I honestly got too obsessed with John’s DC blog to the point where I was not really looking at the whole picture of the Judeo-Christian world and culture and I frankly became warped in my thinking.
I would like to comment here every now and then on a blog topic and follow the debate.
But thanks for the kind offer. You have been a good and fair person with me.
Regards,
Harry McCall
If you do decide to ever change your mind Harry, please let me know.
ReplyDeleteJohn stated:
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as your experience blogging with me goes, I’m sorry to have to state for the record that you were the slowest learner I ever worked with at DC. I gave you simple instructions on how to post a comment and yet you hung the blog up twice. I also think one of your posts hung the blog up so badly I had to switch from the green colored standard blog format to the one we have now. Sure I can get a bit irate about that. It’s my house and you were acting like a drunk in it.
RE: Whatever John. I'm not here to debate you about the past.
Just as the 1964 hit by Gale Garnett stated: We sang in the sunshine, now I’m on my way.
Listen at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzeCjluvxU
And then there were seven….
ReplyDeleteThe list of contributors at DC has now shrunk to 7 with the exit of Ed Babinski.
Interesting!
Wow, I live a sheltered little life, I had no idea all this was going on. The first person I ever talked to on a computer in my whole life was John.(that was about a year ago) Although everything he said was total opposite of what I believed his personality and sense of humor brought me back to his site almost daily. (And Harry as well) (miss you Harry).
ReplyDeleteNot that my opinion would be regarded at all, but I do feel I have something to add to this debate? First of all I read John's book, we actually met and he was kind enough to sign a copy for me. We ate lunch together and I also got to meet his lovely wife. Although John forgot his wallet and I got stuck with the bill it was a great time.
People who have strong personalities and are as polarizing as Mr. Loftus will generally have "drama" in their life whether it be in or out of the Church. My point is simple, John is a good guy on the wrong side of God. He's about as evil as the rest of us?
I told John once (and I meant it) "I hope your book doesn't cause anyone to leave Christianity, but I do hope it's a best seller".
We all friends and family that don't think/believe like we do. But we still care about them. So hopefully Harry and John can patch things up so we can get back to calling each other names like delusional, brainwashed, or dumbass.
Peace out, feeno
Wow, I just visited DC and John totally redesigned the whole site dropping the list of fast exiting contributors including the only two women who might post something twice a year.
ReplyDeleteI guess since John is running DC single handed and doing most all the posting, he saw little need for the “Dead Weight” of non functioning contributors.
Feeno, thanks. Although I remain an atheist, it’s people like you, Harvey (DSHB) and several other I admire.
What needs to be done is to define what a religion is and more particularly, exactly what is Christianity.
What I was doing at DC was letting the Fundamentalist define Christianity for me then I was attacking it to hit at them.
Anyway Feeno, you are one hell of a great guy and both you and Harvey have my respect!
Harry
ReplyDeleteGood lookin' out my friend, your words really mean a lot. I mean, me and Harv mentioned together like that, wow. I don't know how thrilled Harvey will be, but I'm flattered.
Thanks again, good luck on any and or all your future endeavors, and I hope I see you around the blog world.
Late, feeno
"...whatever the case is with that guy, the church should have had the foresight and good sense to protect him from behaving in ways that could potentially be harmful to him, such as this display that you seem to be making such a big fuss about."
ReplyDeleteProtect him from what, exactly? The mockery and jeering that all of the disgusting little puss-filled zits like yourself and John have taken great pleasure in vomiting forth?
Well, I agree with you there. This mans church should never have let him engage in the "harmful behavior" of singing in front of their congregation and not hiding the event from the public eye when his voice so clearly fails to measure up to the high standards of yourself and all the other crap-stains on youtube and DJ's blog. What a bunch of monsters.
I want to emphasize that I didn't mean my suggestion of Harry starting his own blog as, "if you didn't like it, why didn't you just get lost."
ReplyDeleteI don't know what John's up to at DC now, but it'd be great if he and the 25 people who used to be listed as contributors actually *would* prominently link to each other. I don't know why their writings so infrequently appeared there, but I take it they do write a lot, and it's a shame that we can't easily find what they have to say.
Wouldn't a link listing any and all "affiliated" blogs/sites make everyone happy - and have been a good compromise all along?
I'm not holding my breath for this one, but it'd also be cool if everyone concerned linked to blogs/sites that disagreed with them, although a blog like this one wouldn't neatly fit into a philosophical category.
ReplyDeleteYou know guys, I just have to comment. I have an extremely difficult time figuring out why people are dead set to try, and debunk Christianity in the first place.
ReplyDeleteGranted the church is far from perfect, made up of plenty of broken, and fallible people. It often falls short of it's ideals.
But, truly the whole center of Christian faith is not only to love God, but to love, and care for our neighbors as ourselves as well. How is this terrible?
I came to faith in Christ as a relatively young person after plenty of seeking, and questioning intellectually. Certainly don't feel that I've ever checked my mind at the church door to this day. Not that I think I have all the answers, either.
It's largely through my faith, that I've come to see that all people have intrinsic worth, and value apart from performance, including the disabled.
I'm much less judgemental, not expecting everyone to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I work in the human service field, and want to make a difference. Also, very concerned for the stewardship of the earth, seeing all creation as beautiful, and sacred.
To me, atheism feels like an empty room.
Despite posting on these various blogs, it's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that there are actually folks out there who have made it their entire life's work, and mission to try and deliberately pull people away from their trust in God.
I agree with you, Grace, that an unbeliever shouldn't see religion as the world's #1 problem.
ReplyDelete"Support people when they do good, oppose them when they do bad, regardless of the worldviews that are behind what they do," is about the way I see it.
If you do good in the name of your religion, others should respect that.
There came a time in my life when I realized that truth and Christianity were not the same. Christianity needs both creeds and dogmas to go unquestioned in order to exist. Thus, without truth being set (but drawn only from theology (making God logical Theo = god + logy = the study of)); there is now over 20,000 Christianities all claiming to have more “truth” than the others making Christianity a little more than a human construct of subjectivity.
ReplyDeleteThis applies to the debate between St. Paul and his opponents (St. Peter) and Jewish Christianity (Palestine) vs. Hellenistic Christianity (Asia Minor).
It was in such a context that I had to make a choice to either be religious (Christian) or honest: I choose honestly.
Fact is, Jesus’ love is not the central theme of Christianity nor is it Jesus himself, but competing Christianities = competing truths.
Also, the strict limitation, not only what courses can be taught at conservative Christian colleges and universities, but just who is allowed to teach. By limiting courses (Example: Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text with that of the LXX, Targums (Aramaic / Syriac)) conservative schools have subjectively created a Christian illusion that never existed.
The final straw for me came with the Southern Baptist Convention and their doctrinal booklet The Baptist Quarterly. I was asked to leave our Sunday school class; not because I was immoral; not because I was unethical; not because I was rude; but simple because I placed the Hebrew Bible and New Testament in their historical contexts.
I now define myself as an relative atheist (one who rejects the Biblical god) and not an absolute atheist (one who rejects any god). In the final respect, I am an agnostic.
20,000 Christianities?
ReplyDeleteDo you have a source for that?
Can you share more?
ReplyDeleteI know that there were differences of opinion in the first century church, the debate between Peter, and Paul relating to the Gentiles, for instance. But, I don't know that I would consider this to mean there were totally differing Christianities.
Both of these men affirmed, and followed Jesus as Lord.
Some also feel that the gospel of Jesus is different than the teaching of Paul, but I'm able to see alot of commonality.
I think the gnostics came on the scene later in the first, and especially the second century.
I'm so sorry to hear of your experience in SS class. It sounds like you were trashed, and treated horribly.
To me if the "good news, " means anything it implies we should love, and accept people where they're at. I don't feel that anyone should be asked to leave a church because of questioning, or expressing a different opinion.
We should not be conducting orthodox litmus tests at the door.
I mean who would Jesus reject, and turn away?
Thanks for your comment, too, Ismellarat.
Nick,
ReplyDeleteNotice, I said 20K Christianities, and not established denominations. So here’s my point:
If, objectively, ANYONE who accepts Jesus atoning death is a Christian, then Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Orthodox, along with all Baptist and Protestants, are ALL one Christianity -all brothers in Christ.
But, based on my own personal conversations with the above (and many more), they reject each other , attack each other and even label other “Christian” groups as under Satan and, even the anti-Christ (Martian Luther did just this with the Pope). All except the Moonies (The Unification Church) who claim Jesus was given over to be crucified by God because Satan has take over his body (See the Moonies’ holy book: The Divine Principle).
So here now the problem: Christianity is now subjectively defined. Now couple this with freedom of religion, and any personal belief where by a person has some new doctrine / truth (in a day where heresy can not be enforced), and facts now prove that there are now millions of Christianities.
If you want to have some fun, simple go up to people and ask: Can you tell me what Christianity is? And notice than you will get some vague “It’s a believe in God.” or “It’s a belief in Jesus.” Then follow it up with: Well, why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other as heretics? Now you’ll find that life long church going Christians don’t real know what Christianity is either.
My point is that if you placed literate non-religious people on 500 islands with only a Bible, you would come up with 500 different Christianities.
In fact, it would be a great idea for someone to create a blog entitled: What is Christianity? (A Blog to Definitively Define Christianity!) and simply sit back and watch as everyone posting commits attacked everyone else who did not agree with them as non Christian.
Grace,
ReplyDeleteYou make some good points.
Even after 1 - 3 years of being directly taught by Jesus himself, the Apostles did not understand who Jesus was nor what he was up to (Jesus often complained about this himself and the disillusionment and desertion by the Apostles at the crucifixion in the Gospels plainly proves this.)
Facts prove too that Evangelicals can not get a Plan of Salvation out of the Synoptic Gospels (Hey, read some Gospels tracts), but, at the same time, they have no problem getting salvation out of Romans (a letter written by a man who probably never saw nor heard Jesus).
New Testament facts show that ti is really in the Book of Acts and the letters of Paul that Christianity is given some form doctrinal bases.
But, what about Jesus' comment in the synoptics about "giving His life a ransom for many, " and the institution of the Lord's supper?? Jesus does speak of the new covenant in His blood, and the forgiveness of sin. This parallels Paul, I think.
ReplyDeleteBut, hey, what do you think about the incarnation, Harry McCall?
The whole reality of God loving us so much that He fully entered into human life, and suffering, absorbed the consequence of sin, alienation into Himself, so that we could share in His life, really speaks tons to me.
(It is a huge mystery, something beyond finite human understanding, for sure..)
And, after all that, how can we not help but care, and show grace to everyone out there, including Mr. Loftus?
Well, speaking of course from my perspective as a Christian believer.
I never understood what the big deal about that was, Grace.
ReplyDeleteIn a scene from a bad Ellen DeGeneres movie called Mr. Wrong, her stalking boyfriend tells her that to show how much he loves her, he's going to break his little finger, which he does.
The same question presents itself in both situations: Why?!
God is running the whole show, although he's always made out to be some sort of powerless bit player in a larger reality. He could have made salvation dependent on a cosmic pie-eating contest, with infinite second chances given, instead of the bloody, one-shot mess we have to contend with now, that somehow necessitated him crucifying himself.
I don't feel like crucifying him, although maybe I would have, had he dropped me at birth into such a primitive and brainwashed society that was apparently too superstitious to believe in freedom of speech and religion, which would have saved him.
I hope for and think we need a god, but why the Christian god does all these convoluted things that nobody understands (although people like to pretend they do), I'll never know.
Ismell,
ReplyDeleteYour questions, and comments are good, and challenging.
I for one can't say I completely understand, that's for sure. As the Scripture says, "We see through a glass darkly."
But, I think unless God somehow became incarnate, we could not have known the depth of His love. It's by seeing Jesus that we see the face of God, so to speak. We can actually know what He is like, up close, and personal. :)
I suppose if the death of Christ were unnecessary, or superfulous, it would have been like the stalker breaking his own finger. But, if it's truly through His death, and resurrection that together with Him our natures will be changed to reflect the perfect love of God, too, that's another thing.
If it's by His death, and resurrection, that God puts an end to death, and evil for ever, it's another ball of wax.
But, you're right, we surely don't have a perfect understanding of why this was so, the precise mechanics of it...
The church has come up with different theories over the years, but every analogy falls short of the reality itself, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
I, for one, even though my understanding is imperfect, have decided to trust that "life giving stream."
Grace,
ReplyDeleteAs the chorus to that great Christian hymn so clearly states:
Only believe. Only believe. All things are possible. ONLY BELIEVE!
(This includes everything from Catholicism to Mormonism to Sciencetology)
I wouldn't say that, Harry. :)
ReplyDeleteWe can't empirically prove God in a test tube. That's for sure.
But, I don't feel that Christian faith is this totally irrational leap in the dark, either, naturalistic pre-suppositions aside.
There's a difference, I think, between saying our understanding is finite, and imperfect, and that by reason alone we can't know God, than in saying folks should never question, or attempt to search anything out, "check their minds at the church door," so to speak.